BeansTalk
BeansTalk: Where Expertise Meets Opportunity, Mauldin & Jenkins' podcast, where we are sharing and showcasing our areas of expertise through conversations with practice leaders on their knowledge and experience.
BeansTalk
Purpose Meets Profit: Lessons from the Nonprofit World for Business Growth
In this episode, Brandon Smith and Aleisa Howell explore what the nonprofit world can teach us about redefining success beyond just revenue and margins. Aleisa shares surprising insights on how impact-focused metrics, mission-aligned financial strategies, and values-driven leadership can unlock sustainable business growth. Whether you're a business owner or leader, you'll walk away with practical ways to measure what truly matters without sacrificing profitability.
Welcome to Beanstalk, M&J's podcast where we are sharing and showcasing our areas of expertise through conversations with practice leaders on their knowledge and experience. On today's episode, we're going to be diving into the world of nonprofit organizations, which they're organizations who have significant impacts on all of our communities, but come with their own really unique challenges. And nonprofits, like any enterprise, has to have really strong and skilled business leaders helping to navigate those challenges. And to assist with today's discussion, I'm very excited to be joined by a senior partner at Malden and Jenkins specialized in nonprofit organizations, as well as a member of our Advisory Services Steering Committee, Alisa Howell. Hi, Alisa.
SPEAKER_00:Hi, Brandon. It's my pleasure to be here today. Thank you very much for asking me to be part of this. Nonprofits have been very important, not only to our business at Malden and Jenkins, but to my life personally, how they impact the community and just my part in that and helping them succeed. So it's my pleasure to be here today.
SPEAKER_01:Well, Lisa, for today's conversation, your experience and background is going to be tremendously helpful. So I really appreciate you joining me. And can you do a favor for our listeners and just kind of describe your background and your areas of expertise?
SPEAKER_00:Yes. So as I mentioned, I've been at Malden and Jenkins. It's going on 17 years now. I've been in the public accounting space serving nonprofits for over 25 years. They have always been a passion of mine. Early in my career, I realized that there was really a need to have nonprofits where nonprofit founders have generally focused on the mission. And there's really that need for these specialized skills that I know we're going to talk about today in all the areas. And I realized very quickly that I had a passion for it and that I could contribute in a way that's really outside of the mission, been able to help them reach their goals and help with their impact on the community.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and that's when it comes to nonprofits, Yeah, you know, the first thing that comes to mind, really, and I think most nonprofits
SPEAKER_00:nonprofits would agree with this, the resources. They're always struggling for the right resources. The first thing with having a nonprofit, they want to serve that mission. And all of the metrics that surround around how nonprofits are measured, they're really putting all those resources to get it off and running right directly into the mission. But there are all the other things that are very important, the financial, accounting, transparency, the things that we're going to talk about, compliance, fiduciary responsibilities, but the main thing is having those resources available to them. And I know that you and I have talked about this, like how can we help nonprofits kind of bridge the gap between what they're doing on a day-to-day basis and then how we can help them actually make that impact, how we can help them with the right internal accounting controls, whether it's the right compliance setup so it enables them to have greater donations, more opportunities for grant compliance, more opportunities for them to be able to raise money in the community, all of those types of things, along with also securing the assets, securing through today's world and information technology. So those are all the types of things that I think about that we do kind of behind the scenes and we help our clients.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that's because I love that idea of kind of resources and how it ties into so much impact to nonprofits, like you were just describing and kind of touching on a number of different areas. But like at the end of the day, though, I mean, a nonprofit They have a business to run. You know, a lot of times we think about a nonprofit, it's like, oh, they're not there to make a profit. It's like, well, they still do have to be a profitable and well-run business. It's just going to be how is that profit allocated a little bit differently, right?
SPEAKER_00:It really is. And that's one of the common questions. Whether we're presenting financial results at a board meeting, we are often asked, how should I be operating? And I would say years ago, and the metric's really changing a bit, I think the general public have seen that, you know, nonprofits really do need to operate like a business. And we saw it during the time of the pandemic, where when resources, things shut down, resources are not coming in, you know, how long should I be able to sustain myself as an organization so I can continue this mission? And that's one thing that we're starting to see that nonprofits are starting to measure and put in more metrics. Some of those bright line metrics that used to be out there have changed. And And to a point where they should be operating like a normal business, how long you should have cash on hand to be able to sustain yourself in times. And even in uncertainty in today's economic environment with federal funding and what that might look like, what they can do to be able to sustain themselves like a for-profit business would.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so many nonprofits are out there talking about X cents of every dollar goes toward the mission, right? Like 90 cents of every dollar we spend goes toward our mission. And that kind of ties into what you were just describing, right? In terms of like, yeah, we need to be mindful of that, how much of our resources we're putting toward the mission or our program activities. But the other 10 cents matters a lot too, right? To help us run that business well. And I think you referenced like the bright lines. There used to be some kind of clear lines that nonprofits felt like they had to stick to, but it seems like those are kind of evolving.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And there's one unique statement, whether it's an audited financial statements or through the IRS governance document, the 990, there is a concept of how much money is spent directly towards a program in a nonprofit versus the other management and general type expenses. It's one of the biggest metrics that a lot of outside donors will look at. And that has evolved. And that's one area that I know we've helped a lot of our clients with, like taking a look at that, really having good processes in place. to be able to determine how much am I really spending towards a program versus these other things. But one thing I like to tell everybody, it's not just other sort of back office things. Those types of things sometimes are seen as investments. For example, maybe if they're building a new building and they have to employ fundraising, those types of things are going to return money down the future. So nonprofits are starting to look at that from a long-term perspective. Yeah, I love that you kind of
SPEAKER_01:reference investments because that's so true. I mean, a lot of commercial business owners get really focused on enterprise value. You know, think about things like their margins and just what's my business worth. And at a nonprofit, you know, clearly they're not going to someday sell the nonprofit to a new owner, right, and look to exit. or have some transition planning. But enterprise value as a concept is still important in nonprofit organizations where they're having to be mindful of running a good business and also making investments to improve the value of the business to ultimately, at the end of the day, support their mission. But those business concepts still apply. So I love that you referenced that. That rings so true. And just talking about resources as well, a really unique thing it seems with nonprofits is we look at the philanthropy side of nonprofit organizations, the fundraising side. Because I That also ties into what you were referencing. Like we have to spend money to try and raise money, which feels a little awkward, but that's okay to do, right?
SPEAKER_00:It absolutely is. And one thing I know that we work with our clients on, you know, you'll have your normal kind of general operations. And then in years when they are putting more money into those investments, one thing that's really helpful and one thing that we've helped with and can help with is like how– painting the picture of what that story looks like. We're raising money. We're spending more resources on whether it's advancement or fundraising and what that looks like. And what a lot of people... realize is donors will go out to all of these different sites in which nonprofit financial statements or nonprofit tax returns are made publicly available. Donors will make decisions based on a lot of the ratios. And so we really help our clients try to determine what that looks like, what you can do, how you can put the narrative around the numbers. So we're seeing that a lot more. A lot of times nonprofits will have their audit But they will also do some other type of report to the public, the report on impact and how all those things tie in.
SPEAKER_01:that in turn leads to our donors are looking at it and use it to determine whether or not they're going to support us. Are they going to just be a friend to us or turn into a supporter of us? You know, and the different ratios and metrics could potentially influence whether or not they're going to become that supporter. But like you said, it's just important we can tell our story, right? Own what we're doing, believe in our strategy, and just explain it. Not manage to the metrics, but just have the narrative around why they are what they are.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And I know that's one thing you and I have helped a lot of clients with just, you know, it's not just a matter of running ratios and seeing how those are, but the trends and then how we can help them analyze their data to get to a point, to their goal, if they don't like where those numbers are, what that might look like. And like you mentioned, there are a lot of what we call watchdog agencies in the nonprofit world. Those watchdog agencies will go out to the publicly available sites. There's a lot of metrics out there about nonprofits should make their financial statements and tax returns, the 990, publicly available. So savvy donors will take that information, run their own metrics. So one of the things that we really try to help them with is make sure that all of the things that are out there, and there's like some examples about transparency. I'm very interested in policies, procedures, governance that's in place. That is all public. So making sure that nonprofits answer those questions, making sure that they have those in place. And that's one thing we've helped with. And then on the metric side, you know, a lot of times the numbers, you know, they're calculated the way that they are, but moving towards your goal and how you can help analyze that data, how you can change things to paint that picture. And then also having that ready. Donors are very interested in the story of, you know, how or why, why did your ratios go up or down and helping them understand and paint that picture. So when your advancement offices and fundraisers are out there, they have that information available.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and you talking about, you know, starting to mine some data that donors might be doing while it's out there because it's so public and using that to inform their decisions. That kind of gets me wanting to talk about technology, but maybe I'll pin that for right now. You're giving me so many different things I want to kind of dive into and spiderweb into. But while we're still talking about resources, I won't take us away from that quite yet. Even just thinking about nonprofit organizations, size doesn't always attribute to complexity. A lot of nonprofits, they're involved in a lot of different types of business to support their missions and program activities. But when we're talking about the pipeline, we just referenced philanthropy. There's also programmatic income to consider too, right? I'm thinking like a museum that has admission fees and different types. So can you kind of talk me through what you've seen in your experience as the different revenue streams nonprofits can have that business leaders can kind of keep Yeah, and that's
SPEAKER_00:a great, great analogy in terms of nonprofits. And what we've seen is when nonprofits do experience financial difficulty, a lot of times it is because they rely heavily on one source of revenue, whether it be federal funding or granting from a certain type of agency, a local agency, that they're not necessarily 100% dependent on philanthropic support. So having that spread out and having other options, and you mentioned like membership organizations may have it just from their members, but we see very successful ones ultimately getting behind the community and saying, you know, do you believe in our mission? Ultimately having contributions come in, and it may even lead into endowment funds, and those are where nonprofits are, you know, given funding. You see it a lot in colleges and universities, large endowments. Those funds are held in purpose with spending policies, and there's laws and compliance, which I know we'll talk about in a moment, around those, but, you know, ultimately have different sources, whether it's fees that are charged for services, granting agencies, that's a whole topic in itself on being prepared to apply for grants, and then also just general contributions and knowing, you know, what's out there, and then there's a whole other topic Thank you. also focus in. It could be an organization that deals with medical and there's donated pharmaceuticals. So there's all types of different revenue streams, but diversifying those is always very helpful in down times and just knowing. And then also turning. I know I was recently at a training and one of our clients was talking about how they can turn patrons and participants really into donors of their organization. So again, talking about metrics and automated technology and how that can help a nonprofit.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it seems like just diversification, diversification. That's something I know when it just comes to investing fundamentals, we're always told and talked about and advised to do. But that's even true when it comes to just running a good nonprofit organization. Let's look at our different revenue channels and see where we can't diversify. And I really like that you brought up in-kind donations when it comes to just even supplies and materials all the way to services. There's a lot of different ways we can be thinking about, not just how are we going to look to our development department to try and go, you know, hit the pavement and raise some money for us, but also just what are other ways we can do to support the mission and bring the resources we need. And you kind of mentioned grants and, you know, grant applications and getting yourself to a point where you can be successful in that and then even kind of just be able to navigate the changes in funding sources. I mean, that's, you know, any given day we always need to be mindful of is our funding secure from different agencies, especially in the governmental front and different kind of economic environments, could that impact us? But that also just kind of gets me thinking about regulations. It does seem like nonprofit organizations is one of those areas where they just do have more regulations they need to follow, you know, kind of a higher level of expectation from the public into how they're going to handle the resources and be stewards of those resources. Can you kind of Talk me through that from the perspective of a business leader or a nonprofit. How do they need to think of themselves? What regulations do they maybe need to be mindful of? And just what higher standard do they need to maybe try and hold themselves to?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and that's a really good point. Nonprofits, in some aspects, because of receiving donations from the public, kind of consider quasi-public from that aspect. So, there are very specific regulations around bringing in donations from the public, restrictions on those gifts. The organization, the board, has a fiduciary responsibility. So it's a fiduciary responsibility, but it's also compliance with laws and regulations around that, whether they're in an endowment or just restricted, what we call, you know, with donor restrictions for whether it's a purpose or there's a specific time. That's one area we help a lot of clients with, understanding that how to track those. One is on an accounting side. Another is just from a revenue recognition side. And that's one area that, you know, they're really good at securing those, but looking at the compliance around that and what that means. So that's one area. And then I think to kind of an endowment without getting into all the accounting details. There are specific laws when you set up an endowment around. It's the Uniform Prudent Management Institutional Funds Act. So there is fiduciary compliance around investing anything that's considered an endowment. And those are funds held in perpetuity with a spending policy and kind of complex requirements. That, again, is one area that we've really helped clients understand that and growing, and that helps sustain a nonprofit over time.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, because even as we're diversifying our revenue channels and looking into things like taking new kinds of contributions or maybe setting up an endowment, that does introduce us to increased expectations and obligations to manage that money. Like you said, okay, we just got an endowment set up. That's excellent, fantastic news. We have this kind of corpus of resource that we can invest away, and it'll be there for us in perpetuity, but we now have up-mytha. to adhere to, right? Or the different kind of restricted contributions, like you said. Donors have that right to give us a time or purpose restricted donation, and we need to make sure we're tracking it correctly.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we do. And that's one area I know you and I particularly have worked with our clients to help get those processes, internal accounting controls set up to make sure that that runs smoothly. And then not only, you mentioned federal grants or just grants from the state and and local other nonprofit organizations. Each type of grant, if it's federal, it comes all the way down from the federal government passed through different types of entities. It could be passed through the state or another nonprofit organization. And each one of those agencies and grant agreements has specific compliance requirements. So we look and help our clients making sure that they comply so they can continue to get that funding in the future and making sure they have internal accounting controls around those funds. It's actually a requirement that they do, but making sure that they have this, they can continue that funding. And then there's also grant requirements. A lot of times there's very specific participant who they're serving. So there's the financial side of compliance. And then there's also the compliance of carrying out the very specific task of what the funds are used for. So getting a handle on that is an area we can really help with as well, making sure the understanding of those grant agreements and then ultimately that turns into them being able to have future funding.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that kind of ties in, one of the initial things we were navigating and discussing was how, I mean, the great narrative to be able to tell is, 100% of every dollar we spend goes toward our mission, you know, actual, like, serving the exact communities with direct services that we are, you know, are aligned to support. But this just is continuing to demonstrate, like, we have a business to run, and we have obligations to satisfy and fiduciary responsibilities to meet. And that's, it kind of even ties into you were just describing, you know, internal controls, policies and procedures, making sure that whenever it comes to some type of compliance objective or reporting objective that we have, related to an external pressure obligation that we have to the community, that we're structuring what we need to structure to meet those obligations, to meet those objectives. So can you kind of expand for me when it comes to internal controls and nonprofits? It feels like internal controls regularly comes up with nonprofits, especially at the governance level. Kind of talk me through why that's important and how nonprofits can navigate.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and there's a couple of different levels. A lot of times nonprofits will think, well, I'm small. I'm not a big public company. I'm not set But there are a couple of compliance areas in that. If you do receive... an organization receive federal funding, there is a component that you are required. It is not an audit. And I know this is one area that your group helps with, with different types of, you know, getting those processes set up and specialty type reports or going through setting up accounting policies and procedures. But there's specific requirements if you don't have the controls in place that it's actually required to be reported in their reports. We're nonprofits that don't receive that type of federal funding wouldn't have that requirement so it's an elevated level of internal accounting control but oftentimes you know we talk about budgets being you know a budget comparing that budget to actual looking at that, monitoring that is a very top level in the COSO requirements. If you think about monitoring controls and looking at that. And then the board ultimately, the board ultimately is the fiduciary agency that's responsible for nonprofits. So making sure that they have the right oversight from a monitoring position. And a lot of times that's what we're helping them with, a budget to variance, monthly reporting so they can be real time tracking, not doing that just at the end of the year, but throughout the year and monthly. Some of the internal accounting controls, we talk about segregation of duties, what that looks like if you don't have a lot of resources and how the board can step in and do those things, but ultimately having a good budget and good monitoring controls. And then there's also for entities that are a little bit larger where there's embedded controls in the system. And that's where we talk about really like with AI and if you have a more complex system, those application controls that can be embedded. And you talk about information technology controls, which is a big topic that I know you're an expert in. Just all around those controls around securing the data because nonprofits, I mean, they're receiving money from the public and securing that data and what that looks like. So there's all aspects with internal accounts. accounting controls, but it's certainly just as important in a nonprofit that it isn't a for-profit.
SPEAKER_01:That's right. It's not a one-size-fits-all. You know, it's not a these are the controls nonprofits have in place. as an exact rule, right? There's a lot of different things. It depends on the size of our organization as a nonprofit. It depends on what are our funding sources. You referenced federal funds, which we all know those federal agreements, grant agreements, they're long. Those are some of the biggest agreements we have. There's a lot of terms and conditions we need to satisfy, and it ties into this conversation, what we need to do. And it can get tricky, like you said. I'm a board member at a nonprofit, and we're receiving federal funding. but we're not that big. We don't have a lot of resources. So how do I appropriately develop the right controls to do what I need to do to be stewards of public money and federal money, but design those controls in an appropriate way for my size? And I think you gave some great examples in terms of even if we're small, we don't have a lot of opportunities for the separation of duties. It goes through a lot of change in hands when we're just routing through a disbursement or something. We can really bring in those budgetary controls, the oversight controls, the management review controls, really kind of bring into, okay, at my size, what really is the best way to be good stewards of this money without going too far? extreme in terms of, you know, trying to build out a real comprehensive bureaucracy. But then if we are larger, being mindful of, okay, the money we're routing through here, let's make sure that we're staffing up to do what we need to do.
SPEAKER_00:And we oftentimes think about it like, you know, significant, like whether it's revenue streams, you know, where the revenue is coming from, the significant processes in your organization, not just cutting a check or receiving cash, but really around those processes. What should we be securing? And we talked a lot about the grants, federal funding, donations. So the restrictions become a big area where it controls around how the money is spent. A lot of metrics... a lot of disclosure in nonprofits about not only did you receive the money, but how did you spend the money and making sure that you have controls around that ultimately. And then if you think about organizations that are nonprofits, they may have some complex debt transactions. If they're larger, they have tax exempt debt. They could have bonds. There's a lot of compliance, but the controls around that to make sure that those are all being complied with. So you can kind of think about financial controls, but also controls around compliance.
SPEAKER_01:And something that seems to be growing too is, you know, obviously when it comes to a lot of our compliance requirements, our financial reporting obligations, developing controls and processes around that, there's also the side of impact. the actual impact of our organization. And you mentioned earlier too, in some of the reports that nonprofits stick out, you mentioned that it's their annual report, kind of their glossy report. That's a little bit more, has a little more flavor in terms of how they're interacting with their communities they serve. And we're starting to see more and more organizations trying to develop policies, procedures, practices around kind of measuring and communicating their impact. Can you talk me through that a little bit?
SPEAKER_00:Sure. You know, and I mentioned earlier, like there used to be a lot of bright line numbers, like for a nonprofit, what's the right method? that we spend on program versus these other sort of back office or management in general type or even fundraising. the nonprofit industry in general has realized that that impact on the community, what they're helping, you know, whether it's the state or the federal government or just the general community, the impact that they've had. So really, it's taking those dollars that come in from donations, grants, or otherwise, and how they've impacted those individuals. And I can think of a lot of different examples. And in the philanthropic world, it may mean You know, if you have a food service or a homeless shelter, how many people you've served, but then ultimately, you know, tracking those metrics and turning that around, how many people have ultimately been successful and they've gotten off the streets because of that funding. So they're tying in the dollars into how they've impacted the community. And then even other nonprofits that are more what we would call membership organizations or associations that serve their wide end. industry, really like the impact, like what they've been able to advocate for, you know, within the extent of what they're allowed to do, but the impact that they've had to help their membership. And then of course, within nonprofits, you have kind of education and healthcare too. So a lot of metrics in the education world around students that ultimately have been graduated, students that have been able, because of a specific scholarship or grant, have been able to graduate where they may have not otherwise. So there's just a lot of metrics that can be done that are very meaningful and that can ultimately translate. nonprofit into potentially raising more funds because that's a donor's ultimate. The nonprofit's an extension of what that donor can do individually for someone, and they're entrusting that nonprofit to do it for the whole area that they want to serve.
SPEAKER_01:That glossy report is usually a really big supporting function of the development arm, the fundraising arm of a nonprofit to go out there and put out the good word of what we're doing for our communities and help find even more supporters. And something, too, when it comes to that area of reporting and getting our word out there, our narrative out there, it can feel a little bit more like the Wild West. I know a lot of the nonprofit financial executives who are out there listening right now, they know that when it comes to some of their annual reporting obligations, their annual financial report, where they have an extra auditor come in here to help kick the tires and opine on the fairness of that statement We've referenced the 990 a couple of times, the tax return, or maybe more accurately, information return that gets filed to the IRS every year. There are some standard practices nonprofits are having to follow for those reporting obligations. They're reporting their accounting on GAAP. They're navigating up MIFA for their endowments and tracking donor restrictions. When it comes to impact, that can feel a little bit more like the Wild West. There isn't necessarily a gap for how many people experiencing homelessness have you helped. That can kind of sometimes just be defined in the terms of conditions of different awards we receive, or we kind of have to figure those out ourselves in terms of how we can communicate this to the public. But it does seem like for all of our nonprofit executive listeners out there, that that is an area where we're starting to see a little bit more guidance guidelines come around. Still, I wouldn't say anything that there's like a bright line expectation on how to report on that. But I think at this stage, too, at least tell me if you agree, it's just important that our nonprofit leaders start thinking about that, making sure they're developing systems to capture that data, coming up with defensible mechanisms to try and measure that data, come up with consistent ways to report that data, kind of keep an eye out for their peers and partner organizations. How are they doing it so we can be in line with one another and just staying in line with what are trends happening for kind of how others are doing this and how we can do it. There's not necessarily... a gap accounting book for impact analysis and reporting, but let's still try and stay in line with best practices as a form.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I think we're going to see it more and more with impact reporting. There have been talks within the industry, public companies have a management's discussion and analysis, should nonprofits have something similar that discusses their impact? That's kind of been on the table but definitely an important factor but i think about in today's world with technology um the access to data now and um helping clients understand like what is important to you and they like you mentioned they had like really two mechanisms before um through their annual report um or audited financial statements which is really you know Yeah, absolutely. We know that all the nonprofits are doing great things, but it's always about the marketing of how do I get that message out there of what we've accomplished. And that's where I think the information technology is really going to help nonprofits going forward. How do we capture everything that we've done? I think sometimes the education industry has... always tried to track like graduates and their success, you know, 10, 20 years in the future and now philanthropic nonprofits are starting to see, but it's a wide array of missions out there. So it's a little bit harder to get your hands around how to do that. But I know the group that you work with has good resources and able to be able to help the nonprofits really think about that, think about what their plan is and kind of working that into their strategic plan going forward.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, because we are in the age of data, right? Data, data, data, big data and information systems and data analysis and AI and all that kind of stuff. And it's having a unique kind of impact on nonprofit organizations in that so many nonprofits, I mean, we are just is subject to more open records laws than other industries and segments of the economy. And that in a lot of times, even the Form 990, as you mentioned, that's a very public document. Our annual tax return as nonprofit organizations is a public document. Now, of course, there are components that are non-public. Our Schedule B with donors, we pull those pages out before handing it out. But that just leads to an environment where since we're in this age of data, And our data is out there that we want to make sure that we're leveraging that form 990 public document to exactly as you described, take credit for our story. Every opportunity we have in that tax return, let's tell the good word.
SPEAKER_00:with it to be a marketing tool as well, because once it's filed with the IRS, there's multiple agencies that take that information, make it publicly available, and donors directly go out. They know where to obtain that information. But there's a section that talks about, you know, what are your programs? And that's the nonprofit's opportunity to really highlight because that is what's out there. That's the information that's being data mined. So making sure, you know, we can help with that. to explain and get the right wording in there for really what you're doing. And then there's other sections in there as well. I mentioned earlier about the governance section, policies and procedures, what you're doing. And there's sections in that 990 that are driven towards compliance, but it also gives the opportunity for nonprofits to see what types of activities are you engaged in based on the various different schedules. So the information that goes in there is very important. And there's one particular one. It's called program to management in general. In an audited report, it's the functional expense statement. But in the 990, it lays out how the IRS by code wants to see the categories that you spent money on and how much of that directly goes to a program. So that information is out there. So having someone help with that to make sure that it is paying the best picture possible within what you're allowed to do is important with that document.
SPEAKER_01:And Alisa, even just kind of bringing up the concept of AI and how that can impact nonprofit organizations, I mean, that's another can of worms I think we're going to need to dive into at some point. But we've already covered a lot today, and I really appreciate you joining and talking through with me all these different challenges nonprofit business leaders face, everything from the resources they have to the compliance requirements they have to deal with to just really running a good business and all the different public data they have. And so thank you so much for joining me today. And for any of our listeners who are navigating these problems or additional problems alike the ones we've been talking about today, please do not hesitate to reach out to us and visit us at www.mjcpa.com.